Mapping the Doctrine of Discovery
The Mapping the Doctrine of Discovery podcast, hosted by Philip P. Arnold and Sandy Bigtree (Mohawk Nation), critically examines the historical and ongoing impacts of the Doctrine of Christian Discovery. Rooted in 15th-century papal edicts, this doctrine provided theological and legal justification for European colonialism, the seizure of Indigenous lands, and the subjugation of non-Christian peoples. The podcast explores how these principles became codified in U.S. law, from Johnson v. M’Intosh (1823) to Sherrill v. Oneida (2005), and continue to underpin contemporary legal, religious, and corporate frameworks. Featuring discussions with scholars, legal experts, and Indigenous leaders, the series sheds light on how this doctrine fuels environmental destruction, economic exploitation, and cultural genocide while also highlighting Indigenous resistance and calls for justice, land restoration, and the repudiation of these colonial structures. https://podcast.doctrineofdiscovery.org/
Mapping the Doctrine of Discovery
Teaching Uncomfortable History: The Doctrine of Discovery
Holly Rine, associate professor of history at Le Moyne College, offers a compelling perspective on teaching the Doctrine of Discovery at a Jesuit institution. With remarkable candor, she shares her own journey from unfamiliarity with this history to becoming an advocate for institutional honesty about colonization's ongoing impacts.
The conversation explores how critical examination of historical texts like the Jesuit Relations reveals their propagandistic nature. What many accept as straightforward historical accounts were actually carefully crafted narratives designed to secure European funding for colonial projects. Rine encourages her students to question these sources by asking "who wrote them, for whom, and to what purpose?" This approach transforms passive learning into active critical thinking about how history shapes our present.
Particularly fascinating is the discussion of Onondaga Lake as both sacred space to the Haudenosaunee and contested territory through colonization. Rine's work examines how different cultural perspectives view the lake – as either a sacred gathering place or merely as an economic resource. This dichotomy continues today with debates about development projects like Micron's semiconductor facility, drawn to Syracuse largely because of its abundant water resources. The environmental degradation of the lake stands as a physical manifestation of colonial attitudes toward land and water.
The podcast reveals how Indigenous knowledge systems challenge conventional academic approaches. While Western historians rely heavily on written documents, the Haudenosaunee preserve history through oral tradition, wampum belts, and a relational understanding with the natural world. These alternative ways of recording history offer transformative perspectives on our relationship with the environment and each other – particularly relevant as we face climate change and environmental crisis.
As America approaches its 250th anniversary, this episode presents a timely opportunity to reassess the origins of American democracy. The Haudenosaunee Great Law of Peace provided a model of democratic governance that included women and non-human beings in decision-making processes centuries before the Constitution was drafted. By acknowledging these influences and confronting uncomfortable truths about our shared history, we open possibilities for healing relationships with both the land and its original stewards.
View the transcript and show notes at podcast.doctrineofdiscovery.org. Learn more about the Doctrine of Discovery on our site DoctrineofDiscovery.org.
Hello and welcome to the Mapping the Doctrine of Discovery podcast. The producers of this podcast would like to acknowledge with respect the Onondaga Nation firekeepers of the Haudenosaunee, the indigenous peoples on whose ancestral lands Syracuse University now stands, and now introducing your hosts, phil Arnold and Sandy Bigtree.
Speaker 2:Welcome back everyone to Mapping the Doctrine of Discovery. My name is Philip Arnold, I'm a professor in religion and Native American Indigenous Studies and the founding director of the Scano Great Law Peace Center at Syracuse University, and I'm here with I'm Sandy Bigtree, a citizen of the Mohawk Nation at Akwesasne, and I was on the planning committee of the Scano Center, the founding committee.
Speaker 3:I also am on the board of the Indigenous Values Initiative and thank you all for tuning in again.
Speaker 2:This podcast is sponsored by Henry Luce Foundation and today we're very fortunate to have a friend of ours, professor Holly Rine, at Le Moyne University and also on the collaborative of the Scano Great Law Peace Center. Holly has been studying in the area of the Doctrine of Discovery and doing historical work locally, but I'm going to have her introduce herself to the listening public. Holly welcome.
Speaker 4:Thank you very much. I'm really pleased to be here. Yes, I am Holly Rine. I am an associate professor of history at Le Moyne College and, as Phil said, I'm also on the academic collaborative of the Scano Center and I'm just thrilled to be here and have this conversation. It's such a great service, I think, to so many people who just aren't as familiar with the doctrine as they should be.
Speaker 2:Exactly where I wanted to start, holly, because you teach at a Jesuit university, jesuit college. We're still college for the moment. You're still a college, but you're D1, so I don't know. It confuses me. But yeah, so you're teaching at a Jesuit college and, interestingly enough, you know there's a lot of Jesuit institutions that are very interested in this legacy of the doctrine of discovery, perhaps more than other Catholic institutions. That's just my impression from the outside, and I know you've been working on this for a long time. But how do you approach it at a Jesuit college? How do you think your students receive this information about the Doctrine of Discovery? And I'd be just generally interested in your experience.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I mean it's. So. I've been at Le Moyne now this is my 19th year and I will say myself I was really quite unfamiliar with the Doctrine of Discovery when I came. Mary MacDonald may she rest in peace a former religion studies professor, one of your colleagues as well, really brought me in to this discussion, and so it's been a process for me as well, and through these 19 years, really discovering the students don't know the history Very few, and as I learned it, and at a Jesuit school where we talk about social justice, it was like well, this becomes our duty, our responsibility. If we are saying we are a Jesuit school and we are following in this history and tradition of social justice, well, what does that exactly mean before social justice became a thing?
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 4:And we have so much at Le Moyne that harkens back to the relationship with the Onondagas on our our the name Lemoyne, simon Lemoyne as the Jesuit who came to this area, and you ask a student who Simon Lemoyne was and oftentimes well, he founded the college in 1940, 1946.
Speaker 4:Well, no, he did not 1946. Well, no, he did not. So it really became important to me and I'm making slow inroads into having students understand exactly what, what, what was happening here. But I was actually the first person they hired to teach Native American history at all as well, at Le Moyne. So I said this this, the Doctrine and Discovery, has become for me more than just this, is a really interesting area to teach. This is a responsibility to say. If we are parts of a Jesuit tradition and part of this particular history, we need to know about it. And the students extremely receptive, shocked really, when we start. So I've had opportunities.
Speaker 4:It's it's not college wide, but you know, in in my particular classes we do the, these projects and, uh, looking at the doctrine and looking at then Lemoyne and looking at the history, how, how the history has been told, versus you know this, this counter narrative and, um, I, I love our students because they're like, no, we need to do these projects and people need to know this, and they've come up with some really interesting projects with QR codes and everything to help educate their peers.
Speaker 4:So I've done a project. Particularly, we started doing a public history program here at Le Moyne, so an introduction to public history. So I was like, well, here's our chance. So we take a look at the doctrine of discovery and we take a look at this history and I allow students to come up with their own projects. And how do you tell then incoming students about the history that they are now a part of? You know if you're going to say you're a Lemoyne Dolphin, you are a part of this. And they've done wonderfully from podcasts. They created their own podcast to, like I said, tours, so you could take your phone and do the QR codes in order to so they have. Those who are have been introduced to the doctrine, have realized their own responsibility as a Le Moyne student.
Speaker 3:Well, we live in a very vibrant part of the world. When the Jesuits came into this territory, they recorded the first histories that were written about the Haudenosaunee, and that's how England learned about. The Haudenosaunee was through what the Jesuits were writing and publishing all over Europe, and they came into this continent through the doctrine of discovery to Christianize and install a patriarchy among a matrilineal culture which permeated all of the Americas, frankly. So today we still have the Onondaga Nation organized around their matrilineal clan system. Then we have this French fort that we were trying all of us were trying to work to repurpose into the telling of this history people know nothing about, as you indicated at the beginning of this podcast, and so it was quite a venture, because we had great opposition, and a lot of it was coming from Le Moyne in the beginning. They did not want us repurposing the French fort and telling a different perspective of what actually happened in Haudenosaunee territory. So you were part of this collaborative as well, but you were right in the thick of it in Lemoyne.
Speaker 2:I have to say that you were kind of fearless, pushing back against some of the Jesuits in your college, you know, insisting that they listen, rather than you know sort of preach um some colleagues in your own department. So I mean I it was, that was. I think that was really a lesson for us to see you, to see you take on your own institution Brave yeah.
Speaker 4:And again, it was. You know, I, I, I look at, uh, at Daniel Berrigan. You know, one of the kind of the Jesuit many people are familiar with, big social activist, and one of his statements was you know, know where you stand and stand there.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 4:You know. So it's, it's and it's been really eye opening with these conversations. I think, as people come around, been really eye-opening with these conversations. I think as people come around it's slow, but one of the Ignatian principles of education is through Ignatian principles of conversation, which is to truly sit and listen and in many respects, right. It goes back to Haudenosaunee ideas of how you come to a decision. Unfortunately, in the modern world, many in the Jesuit fold you know it's well. No, we have decisions to make and you know we've got, we've got to move forward. So adopting that has been, I think, very beneficial, primarily for the students you said you know I'm not going to fight fights necessarily.
Speaker 2:You've got to pick them. Well, there's a reason.
Speaker 3:The first peace council, the first peace movement in the United States occurred in Syracuse right and the Berrigans were very much a part of that movement. But it's also the heart of Haudenosaunee territory, the heart of the Confederacy and spreading the great, binding peace around the world. So they were definitely influenced by all of that.
Speaker 4:Oh, yes, and when students are introduced to that concept as well. So it's like you know, yes, we have American democracy because, yes, I just finished teaching a class in the American Revolution. But as I come back for my Native American history class, where we're going to go deeper into really, when we look at representative government, when we look at true ideals of democracy, you look at the great law of peace and it was done earlier and, in my perspective, with the voices of women and really kind of looking at this idea of consensus building better. It was done better and it's as I students have been been, you know, quite responsible when you start really looking at the evidence. And, sandy, I mean you talked about the Jesuit relations and and I mean those are the sources we have right For historians. We need the Jesuit relations, those are the sources we have Right, and one of the biggest challenges is teaching students how to read those sources is teaching students how to read those sources?
Speaker 2:Yeah, mother's Fathers. I wanted to ask about that because that goes right to the heart of doing history.
Speaker 4:Yes, right, and you can't have history without the written sources, but we do exercises. If we look at these sources, the Jesuit relations, without any kind of critical eye, oh my, there's a history we cannot tell and unfortunately that has happened. It's like, well, here's the written sources and we're going to take that as gospel truth with the Jesuits gospel truth. But once again, once we start thinking about and students pushing, I'm like why were they written? Who were they written for? What was, what was the purpose and what is it now that we can see in these relations? So, you know, when they talk about Lemoyne and his speech, you know, when they talk about Lemoyne and his speech, um, when he, when he shows up at Onondaga and he, oh, that, that story of him, you know, you just kind of see him walking around and you know pronouncing in this great performance and according to him, all the Onondagas were just applauding and this is this is, oh, this is beautiful.
Speaker 4:This is wonderful. Can we get enough and to really start saying, ok, well, here's events that are happening in the world. Why might, even if we do have Onondaga approval of some of these statements what might be going on here?
Speaker 1:Are they?
Speaker 4:really like oh, please, come and build your chapels. And once you really start thinking critically, knowing more of the context and knowing about the great law of peace and understanding, then the doctrine of discovery and how these, these ideas kind of come to to take over students get it yeah, they sure do they get it? Um, but it is a process, I mean, and that speech that lemoyne gave, and I crack up too because because we do have Simon's Pub on campus and we have?
Speaker 4:we have. It's a picture painting supposed to be, of Simon Lemoyne, and I just I just cry because it kind of looks like the Marlboro man and I was like we're still kind of promoting this, this, this idea, this version of you know, the, the, the vitality and the oh, such a charismatic figure and you know he may have been, but these words are. We need them, those are our sources, but we need to be careful, careful, careful with how we take a look at them.
Speaker 2:Well, yeah, they have definite agenda in publishing those yeah.
Speaker 3:So they can continue to be funded by the European monarchs to penetrate this land. And there was only. It's not like. This was the first time the Onondaga met the Jesuits they were aware.
Speaker 3:They were north of the St Lawrence, penetrating the Wendat, and they were chaining women in the forest until they would accept to take vows of Christianity and be subservient to their husbands. It was so brutal those first 30 years the Jesuits were up there. Don't think for a moment Onondaga didn't already know about this. Oh yeah. So when the French fort narrative that had been teaching this community about these first relations were about the Onondaga asking them to please come and Christianize us, you can see it was pure propaganda. Oh, the spirit in which those Jesuit relations were written.
Speaker 2:But you know, there are little nuggets of Because we have other evidence. Of course you know we have the evidence of the land grant Arriving with yeah arriving with this land grant.
Speaker 4:Oh yeah.
Speaker 2:A deed essentially to 600 square miles of land, which isn't in the relations, of course, but that's another piece of evidence of really the doctrine of discovery. So those you know, just a few years after Lemoyne they're coming up and setting up shop, knowing that they're taking and appropriating land. You know.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So so there, you know the, the flourishes of speeches, and you know all the good, the good deeds that are presented in the, in the relations, are not always backed up by the, even the written evidence, you know.
Speaker 3:Well, the relations are talking about this culture that live in peace and they never scold their children or hit them. The men respect the women, the women respect the men. They have plentiful gardens of food and crops and these heathens need to understand the power of God and that they sin. These people are sinners but they don't have even have a concept of sin, I mean those are all negatives. This is all written. Those are all the negatives of the relationship.
Speaker 4:And it's just because I think people then, you know, become more open to these ideas. I think once what happened at georgetown university yeah the, the selling of slaves. So they had this enslaved population. Students were just like what?
Speaker 2:yeah what?
Speaker 4:what do you mean? That can't have been social justice. It's like social justice is is new right I'm like you know, but as like, let's we take a little bit closer, look at what the Jesuits again we're asking. It's like okay, it's okay to sell these enslaved people to Louisiana parish plantations, as long as they continue to get their catechism.
Speaker 4:Yeah, right as long as the Catholic education and that they're, they're the sacraments are available to them and they're, they're going to have Catholic instruction, right. And I was like so that the goal wasn't social justice here on earth. The goal is, yeah, we're going to, we're going to convert you and you're going to have this wonderful experience in an afterworld you don't necessarily believe in or want you know. So I was like we have to kind of take a look just because, just because we talk about social justice now doesn't mean we talked about that then. So watching Georgetown really kind of deal with that.
Speaker 4:Yeah really kind of deal with that, yeah. And then when we take a look and we see more colleges and universities focusing on their history with indigenous peoples as well, you know, students were like, okay, yeah, we are a part of something bigger here as well. That that which is always a trick getting students at Le Moyne to understand that history didn't just happen elsewhere. History happened here. Very significant things happen here that are very much connected. So just because it happened here doesn't mean it's insignificant. It happened here and it's really a crucial part of a larger picture and we're not separate from it. So we talk about, really, you know, indigenous ideas of history are much more relevant right.
Speaker 4:They're part of today as opposed to, I think you know. So many of you know again, history happened over there, or some other time, some other place, and I was like no, now. Now you are a part of this story. What do you do with this story? What is your role? You're a part of it now, you're not just studying it. You are a part.
Speaker 2:And it's not like it was just in the past. Right, it's relevant, yeah, right.
Speaker 3:But you talk about social justice. Well, I said, when the Jesuits first came into Wendat territory, they claimed they Christianized the whole nation within 30 years. And yet there were orators going to Europe critiquing the greatest thinkers in Europe at the time who professed to be practicing equality and social justice and all the things you're talking about. But they're saying you're only equal and just under the rule of your monarch. And we're kind of being fed these same narratives today. That's what Putin's, you know, telling his people you're all free and equal. Seriously, and we're kind of shifting in that direction ourselves in this country. So you know, you've got to be made aware of the seriousness of these discussions.
Speaker 2:And they haven't gone away. The past is not past, it's present and part of our future. I think I mean this is from Adam, our producer, Because he asks what does the Catholic theology of the priests who think conversion and Catholic practice of the enslaved folks was doing for them, for the priests or for the church? I think it's a good question, given your comments on Georgetown, for example. On Georgetown, for example, I mean, you know.
Speaker 3:What does the catechism have to do with holding these people in bondage? How does that liberate them? It's yeah.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I mean so. Yeah, I mean the idea of you know being held in bondage on earth.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 4:That's fine and really one of the goals of the Jesuits in the 18th century. Right martyrdom, everybody was looking for suffering on earth for the greater good of the greater glory of God. So, again, social justice doesn't fit into that, because it's better for you to die, it's better for you to be, it's okay for you to be held in bondage as long as you are, you know, maintaining Catholic practice and maintaining the sacraments, and you know, and the priests are the ones responsible for making sure that that happens right. So duty done.
Speaker 1:Do you need help catching up on today's topic or do you want to learn more about the resources mentioned? If so, please check our website at podcastdoctrineofdiscoveryorg for more information and, if you like this episode, review it on Apple, spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts. And now back to the conversation.
Speaker 2:You were present at our conversations with David McCollum, Father McCollum at Le Moyne, and we were at it for three years or more, I think, with the Onondaga there at Le Moyne, and we were at it for three years or more, I think, with the Onondaga there at Le Moyne, and I remember one exchange where we were talking about the martyrs actually, and their names on your dorms, I think, and I think it was Jake Edwards asked well, what is a martyr? And they explained somebody was spreading the gospel among non-Christian people, you know, among Native people. I don't think they use the word heathen to be, you know.
Speaker 4:No no.
Speaker 2:But then Jake said, oh you, you mean invaders, which completely flips the script, you know. I mean it's just. It was just a kind of. It was a revelation to me, you know, because and I'm not, I'm not catholic, of course, and I but you know but martyrs only operate in a certain kind of worldview, in a framework right and maybe a, maybe a historical one, you know, but you know, to me that was a kind of revelation. It sort of quieted the room for a while, I think.
Speaker 4:Yes, yes, yes, it did. And I mean I just also remember, I believe, at one point I'm not sure if it was David or someone, but just saying that they were looking for reconciliation at this point. And was it Jake? It was like no, not now, not in our lifetimes, not going to happen. It may have, even it may have been Oren I'm not, I don't, but I remember. I remember that exchange extremely well and I talk about that with my students as well.
Speaker 2:Wow.
Speaker 4:This is, this is something that is not. It's not like okay, you know, all right, yeah, we get you, you know great.
Speaker 2:I understand now yeah.
Speaker 4:Let's move on, and, and, and, and. That really hits home for them that they are part of this.
Speaker 3:All right. Maybe we can talk about reconciliation when we can dip a cup in any stream and drink freely from it without being poisoned.
Speaker 2:Right, and that gets to your.
Speaker 3:Begin the conversation about reconciliation. There need to be changes right before we can arrive at that sort of conversation.
Speaker 2:As Adam also interjects, Oren says there can be no reconciliation when there is no point to which one can be conciled which to which one can be conciled a strange word, but you know you can't be reconciled until you can be conciled.
Speaker 5:And to jump in there right, what oran is pointing out right is the word reconciliation is a return to when things were going good, when there was a good time. When spouses reconcile, it's recognizing the good times. Yeah, where in the 500 years of history is the good times? Where is that point to which one can be conciled, right? Thank, you.
Speaker 2:Sandy's point gets us kind of to this article. You wrote, maybe, the title page, yes, onondaga Lake, sacred Space, contested Space, and it's a remarkable piece and I think what you're trying to do. You can tell us what you're trying to do, but from my point of view you're trying to localize history, you're trying to give it some local importance, but also thinking about the environmental impacts and other kinds of impacts that history can tell a story or weave a story of a place and it's difficult past in a way that helps us revisit where we are right. But you tell us what you wanted to accomplish with this piece.
Speaker 4:Yeah, there's a few things I'm really again focusing on local that, yes, you know, I want us to take a look at this, this, this bit of local history. And when we look at onondaga lake, right, the story of it is primarily the modern story of, of the pollution it's like. Well, there's more to it as well, and if we want to look, we want to get to the point of, as sandy said, you know, it'd be great if we could actually, you know, dip our cups. It'd be great if you could dip your toe in there.
Speaker 4:I mean at this point in time, right, that this, it didn't have to be this way. To be this way and this is what I try to tell students with history all the time it wasn't just a set of things that have to unfold in a particular way. We make choices, choices were made that got us to this point. But if you look at that original history of the lake, the sacred nature of this particular place and we as Americans talk about the importance of sacred places and I talk about that in in the article as well I, joe Biden, talked about on January 6th with the, with the attacks on the Capitol, that a sacred place of government, of, of founding was, was attacked. It's like, well, that happened here, that happened at Onondaga Lake. We don't recognize that, but it did. Maybe, if we can recognize this, at one point this gets to the conciled part. Maybe we can look at that bit of history and say there is another way, there is another approach, and this approach may take another 400 years.
Speaker 4:But, it is something that we can really take a look at and think about.
Speaker 2:I think the you know, the value of, from our point of view, is the value of the 250 celebration next year is that we can really reassess where democracy has been inspired. And maybe you know, think about. You know it's always a standard practice of the Haudenosaunee to include other non-human beings in their democratic processes, right? So this radical democratic process does have the water in it. It does have animals and trees and the land and things like that, which is something that, of course, our founding fathers completely neglected.
Speaker 2:You know the role of the non-human persons and more than human, and of course women and others, you know, but it's not finished. I guess is what you're saying.
Speaker 4:It's not finished, right, I mean. So we've made choices, we can continue to make choices and we have other models to look at, especially, as you said, right, this time there's a lot of just finish the American Revolution course and one of the things we were talking about is the future of the American Revolution. What, what does this look like? And, you know, students were really, really thoughtful about, really, the challenges that we're facing at this point in time, backsliding and going right back into deregulation and what can happen to the environment, and it's like, okay, we're at this pivot point again of where are we heading? And now we're in this time of social justice where we had the late Pope actually wrote an encyclical dealing with the environment, right, so we've switched these ideas of of what land and water and, you know, the non-human animals, their value no longer necessarily just economic, to to, you know, subdue the earth, and you know, but now, oh wait, we live amongst, we are part, we are responsible again, right.
Speaker 4:So I think we are at that moment, and at a, at a Jesuit institution, I think, of saying, okay, we can switch this view and we can look back on that doctrine of discovery, we can look back at that great law of peace and that kind of that clash really right, you had two completely different worldviews. Here we are at a moment. We can make a decision. We can make a decision. What will those decisions be? Kind of moving forward as we look to the history that has informed us and informed this area, whether we look at Onondaga Lake, whether we look at the Sullivan Clinton campaigns during the American Revolution which again comes as a shock to a lot of students, Mm, hmm.
Speaker 4:They don't know it. You know that George Washington ordered this attack into the area, that really the goal was, of course, to eliminate the Haudenosaunee and to take that land and those resources. It's like, okay, we're at a moment, what do we do with that? And I think it's a really both exciting and fearful time.
Speaker 3:Well, both are at play. It is fearful and it is exciting. And you know you talk about. You know, on Doggle Lake, let's talk about the erie canal. You know, our first encounter where we're going to share in the river of life, the, the two row wampum, the hood and shoney present to the dutch. We're going to share in the river of life down parallel paths and not interfere with one another. Well, you have to first determine your perspective of life. Is it about your relationship with the natural world? Does the Haudenosaunee see it? Or is this life the spirit of an economic growth right through a New York state, with what was to follow, and that's the Erie Canal? It's an artificial waterway. We're hearing talk right now about micron associating with being the present day Erie Canal of New York State and that's a flag. That is terrifying, knowing what the Erie Canal did to the Haudenosaunee throughout this land, disrupting this whole ecological system, throughout this land, disrupting this whole ecological system, and with Micron and terror, we're right at that moment.
Speaker 3:You're right.
Speaker 4:And with Micron. And again, why are they looking here? It's water resources.
Speaker 2:Water.
Speaker 4:And that's a fun thing with students as well. It's like we don't understand, like the crucial nature of water, because we have so much of it here right, right. I mean half the time I moved to syracuse and there's a hole in my basement. I was like why is there a hole in the floor of my basement? I've never seen that before right and they're like oh that then, syracuse. That's the difference between having a basement or an or or or a pool or a lake yes, yes in your house.
Speaker 4:So that role of water, which again I mean so the past week it hasn't stopped right In so much of the world that is such a focal point where it's not here in the same way, right, but Micron is here because of the water. What is that going to do as well? So, yeah, sandy, that whole idea of the Erie Canal, yes, this is going to be a new economic revolution for this area. They're here because of the water resources. The Jesuits were really interested in the salt.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:You know how do we talk about sacred space?
Speaker 4:And here we go again. What choices, you know. And even with the aquarium which is just continues to. You know, I was like we're going to build an aquarium it's like what to show what the fish who should have been living in the in the lake look like you know, this is you know what? What are the choices that that, that we make?
Speaker 2:No, I mean, I think what you've done in this article is is set up. You know our thinking about the long duration, right? You know the long duration of of Onondaga Lake. You know our thinking about the long duration, right, you know the long duration of Onondaga Lake. You know from what we call prehistory, although it's just history. I mean it's just history, I mean because the Onondaga are there and they're telling us about this history. And that's what we were trying to do at the Scano Center is trying to give people a sense of values before we can, you know, so that it can set up a conversation right, set up our students to think about what, what, what will be our future and to leave with a critical eye yeah about what's happening around them yes
Speaker 4:and yes, I mean that is so from you know how do we read the sources, what you know, everything. Yes, you have to, you have to ask those questions and you have to be open minded. Like I said, when I got here in 2006, you know, I wasn't that familiar with the doctrine of discovery and it was me sitting and listening, just shutting my mouth, and in conversation with the Onondagas, I took that Jesuit principle of listen, don't come to conclusions until you listen and learn. And I listened and I I think I learned quite a bit and it's it's gotten me to Right, and this was after my PhD. Right, I got my PhD.
Speaker 1:I know it all.
Speaker 4:God, no, and that's that's another thing I hope my students really get out of. That is that you know this. This is a continuing my students really get out of that is that you know this, this is a continuing. I'm going to teach you things that are going to be challenged and should be challenged. And you don't just sit there and say well, Dr Ryan said that, therefore, it's true.
Speaker 2:No, they don't do that anymore. They don't take it. They don't take what you say as gospel At.
Speaker 4:LeMoyne, they still kind of do. I told them I was going to start lying one day, just to see what happens.
Speaker 2:Yeah, just use the strategy of the Jesuits 17th century, jeff. But you know, I mean, of course, I mean I was always interested and I have a similar kind of history to yours in that, you know, I really started learning about the doctrine of discovery in the early 2000s we'll say around 2004 or 2005, when we started to get to know Steve Newcomb, for example, and his work. But of course I was always interested. If you're teaching Native America, you're always aware of the contact situation, right, always aware of the contact situation, right. It might be manifest destiny, it might be just outright colonialism or conquest or the Indian Wars or whatever you're. You know wherever you are in that kind of history.
Speaker 2:But you know the doctrine of discovery, I guess maybe as a category sort of encapsulates that whole kind of mass of myth, that kind of myth, mythology that has driven the American culture so much. But I mean, that's the way I think about it. You know that I've always kind of been working on it. You know that I've always kind of been working on it. But then you know this, this idea of the doctrine of discovery and the specificity of the documents, you know, coming from the 15th century or earlier, just that kind of galvanizes everything.
Speaker 4:Yes, and and to look at really how that that continues then right Through. That continues then right through through areas that that students are more familiar with, like Cherokee removal and removal period and the court cases that that students are vaguely familiar, this, this kind of happened, you know.
Speaker 4:But to really look into that idea of the legal march here, right, so we talk about the United States for a country of laws. Well, where do these laws then, you know, come from? And this was one part of my learning process. So, yeah, I knew Johnson v McIntosh, I knew about all of these things. I'm like, oh wait, I knew, I knew Johnson v McIntosh, I knew about all of these things. I'm like, oh wait, this is a continuation of that doctrine.
Speaker 4:Then that that that legal right I win because I it's, it's the law I win because it's the legal document that says I own this land. And to say that in US law that came from canon law, that came from the Pope, which at the time was the law right and how it moves into US law. So we really view that all the way up to, of course, the Cheryl case, the Cheryl Oneida case, and students are blown away when they read. They not only read that, but that, that footnote, and talking about basically that the Oneidas, it's it's too late for them to claim the land, and it's kind of. I wish I had the quote in front of me. But what's that Latches?
Speaker 3:right.
Speaker 4:That this is basically part of how it's been done. This is the law, this is the doctrine of discovery. And then students realize that was Ruth Bader Ginsburg who wrote it and they're like what? Right who wrote it and they're like what, what, what? No, it's like. This becomes that crucial element, then, of that legal nature which then gets us back to the great law of peace Right. Which doesn't necessarily be recognized as law.
Speaker 2:I mean Adam has it here. Doctrine of discovery I mean Adam has it here Doctrine of Discovery, fee titled to the lands occupied by Indians when the colonists arrived, became vested in the sovereign, first the discovering European nation and later the original states and then the United States. That's Ruth Bader Ginsburg first footnote. So yeah, I mean, and for me, in religion, right, I mean religion we talk about sacred places all the time. We, you know, we talk about all of these theological elements, but the doctrine of discovery brings together religion and law with.
Speaker 2:You know textual exegesis, you know historical work. It brings together all these different people, environmentalists, indigenous peoples. It seems to me a galvanizing, has a galvanizing effect on bringing all kinds of different academics together with indigenous people around a kind of shared concern. And that's what I think the power of the of this is really, and and why, why this is mapping the doctrine of discovery, because just all over the place, you know it goes with so many different areas.
Speaker 3:It's a way through it. I mean an academic, indigenous people have held such distrust. Because anymore, because when you incorporate the doctrine of discovery into interpreting these ancient texts and primary sources, you're beginning to see a fault line there that's cracking open. So you have to question the experts. You had to study to become a know, a professor, right, and everybody. It's all beginning to erode and and it's a good thing because it has to be reconstructed you do want people having a critical mind. Nobody knows the definitive truth here of what's been recorded yeah, and that's.
Speaker 4:That's really one of the things I push with my students. I was like Nobody knows the definitive truth here, of what's been recorded that are presented to you, the history that's presented to you, and just stop, take a moment and really think and come up with your own questions. So a lot of times it's like I don't want to know what this. I want to know what your questions are about the source.
Speaker 4:I want to know what it is that you know, that you see, that makes you either say oh, I didn't know that, or wait a second timeout. This sounds wrong. It's okay for you to say this sounds wrong and ask that question and like that's the real key, and it's a hard thing for students to learn.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And the relationship becomes more collaborative between the professor and the student. Yeah, the relationship becomes more collaborative between the professor and the student. Yeah, yes, it's more regenerative. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And, and I mean also, we have other texts as well. We have Womble Belts, for example, you have, you have the, you know the Hiawatha belt. In your article you talk, do you discuss the founding of the League and the Confederacy. But we also have the Remembrance Belt which, for the Onondaga anyway, details that relationship between the Haudenosaunee and the or sorry, the Onondaga and the Jesuits in the 17th century. But as far as I know, nobody's really sort of put that down in a way.
Speaker 2:I mean, it's been discussed, but a wampum belt functions fundamentally differently than a text, you know. So you know it becomes a much more collaborative exercise to be able to interpret like a wampum belt or, uh, you know, to have these kind of conversations of what, what really happened there. You know have, for example, you know, oran lions talking about that remembrance belt and he did it at lemoyne, as I recall, you know, in a presentation there, talking about the two row, talking about the, the, you know these wampum belts that then became, you know, it's a kind of revelation for people doing this history, you know, gives them another angle, you know.
Speaker 4:And really. And that's one of the things is, I use the wampum belts in teaching Really, and that's one of the things I is. I use the wampum belts in teaching and you know cause? Most of the students are like oh, it's just like a game of telephone or whatever Exactly.
Speaker 2:No.
Speaker 4:And and they're like well, things, things change. I was like to try to get them to understand and again, that's the present nature of history. It's like there there is an understanding, there is, this is. This isn't just the documents that we look at in the archives, this is a living piece of of understanding that that goes beyond, in many respects, how we look at written sources. So it's, it's really difficult I mean it was difficult for me to wrap my head around, so it's really difficult. I mean it was difficult for me to wrap my head around and it can be really challenging for them, but in the end they at least understand it to the point of how these visual elements, the wampum belts, or if we're looking at Lakota, winter, counts, how we understand these and how they really continue to, to, to live.
Speaker 4:Um, it's, it's, yeah, it's, it's one of the big challenges. And, uh, but students, again, I love them when they're really open, when they're open to, to, to those ideas. Um, and, and the two row is yeah, once they, once they see that, and also the. You said the, the treaty, canandaigua and the Washington belt there, that that blows their minds in ways of like, wait, you had Washington tried to destroy the Haudenosaunee. And now there's a treaty. And how does all this, how does all this go together? And I was like and not only is there this treaty, but every November 11th, go to Canada, go to.
Speaker 4:Canada Again. It's, it's, it's alive, it is, it is not in the past. This is a crucial element of present identity as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's thrilling, it's really thrilling.
Speaker 3:It's a different way of remembrance, when history is more factual and there's, like all these, dates and linear way of thinking. But the Haudenosaunee don't think that way. It's not relational. Sid says you cannot experience peace unless you're in proper relationship with the natural world. This is all about relationships.
Speaker 2:The two row is about relationships, the Canandaigua Treaty is about relationships and when those are a way of living, you do remember those relationships better than you would remember written facts also I mean going back to your article, just, uh, you know also those are, they're in the land, right, all those, all those, um, what remembrances and the wampum belts are connected to the lake or to you know these places, right, and that's another way that they remember you know really literally putting it together.
Speaker 3:So much is encoded in the natural world. When this plant goes to seed, or when the fish you know are jumping in their streams, you know it all triggers other events that are going to happen. It is is, it's all relational.
Speaker 4:It's a different way of relating to the world very, very much so, whereas the doctrine of discovery, the relationship isn't a collaborative one, it is a power relationship, right yeah which, which just made me think, it reminded me of a quote from Theda Perdue, a scholar of Cherokee history, when she talked about where the Christians were kicked out of their Garden of Eden. The Cherokees lived in theirs, this garden, this relationship, this, you know, that is, is the scene of destruction for Christianity Judeo-Christian, but for for Cherokees, and we could, we can apply this, of course, to the Haudenosaunee. She focused specifically on Cherokees, but they, they lived in in theirs, and it it's, and that same kind of understanding of place and relationship, and it's a completely different way of looking at things which, again, you know, gives us that opportunity to say there's a different way. It doesn't have to be the exact same way, but there is a different way. History does not have to unfold in this one linear. These are what the documents say, therefore, this is how it's going to happen.
Speaker 2:Well, that's a wonderful place to conclude our conversation today. I want to thank you, Holly, for being with us. This was really delightful. Long overdue, I would say so thanks very much.
Speaker 4:My pleasure, this was a lot of fun. Yeah, it was.
Speaker 1:The producers of this podcast were Adam DJ Brett and Jordan Lone Colon. Our intro and outro is social dancing music by Oris Edwards and Regis Cook. This podcast is funded in collaboration with the Henry Luce Foundation, syracuse University and Hendrix Chapel and the Indigenous Values Initiative. If you like this episode, please check out our website and make sure to subscribe.
