Mapping the Doctrine of Discovery
The Mapping the Doctrine of Discovery podcast, hosted by Philip P. Arnold and Sandy Bigtree (Mohawk Nation), critically examines the historical and ongoing impacts of the Doctrine of Christian Discovery. Rooted in 15th-century papal edicts, this doctrine provided theological and legal justification for European colonialism, the seizure of Indigenous lands, and the subjugation of non-Christian peoples. The podcast explores how these principles became codified in U.S. law, from Johnson v. M’Intosh (1823) to Sherrill v. Oneida (2005), and continue to underpin contemporary legal, religious, and corporate frameworks. Featuring discussions with scholars, legal experts, and Indigenous leaders, the series sheds light on how this doctrine fuels environmental destruction, economic exploitation, and cultural genocide while also highlighting Indigenous resistance and calls for justice, land restoration, and the repudiation of these colonial structures. https://podcast.doctrineofdiscovery.org/
Mapping the Doctrine of Discovery
S05E07: Indigenous Wisdom for Planetary Healing with Yuria Celidwen
Yuria Celidwen, a Nahua and Maya scholar and UC Berkeley postdoctoral researcher, shares how Indigenous wisdom offers pathways for collective healing beyond colonial mindfulness practices that prioritize individual benefit over community wellbeing.
• Identifying as a "truth bearer" from Maya tradition, Celidwen bridges Indigenous epistemologies with academic research
• The mindfulness movement has colonial roots, extracting Eastern practices while severing them from community responsibility
• Indigenous sciences engage in "intersubjective dialogue" with subjects rather than treating them as inert objects
• The doctrine of discovery established belief systems of domination that continue to impact Indigenous peoples
• Historical distortions by missionaries and colonists undermined Haudenosaunee matrilineal systems and traditional practices
• Indigenous knowledge uses metaphor, poetry, and ceremony to express complex scientific understanding
• Young people increasingly recognize the value of Indigenous perspectives in addressing climate emergency
• Transformation requires composting old narratives of purity and domination to create new ways of being
• We're never alone in this work - we carry ancestral wisdom and plant seeds for future generations
Find Yuria Celidwen book "Flourishing Kin: Indigenous Wisdom for Collective Well-Being" to discover Indigenous-inspired practices for reconnecting with the more-than-human world.
View the transcript and show notes at podcast.doctrineofdiscovery.org. Learn more about the Doctrine of Discovery on our site DoctrineofDiscovery.org.
Hello and welcome to the Mapping the Doctrine of Discovery podcast. The producers of this podcast would like to acknowledge with respect the Onondaga Nation firekeepers of the Haudenosaunee, the indigenous peoples on whose ancestral lands Syracuse University now stands, and now introducing your hosts, phil Arnold and Sandy Bigtree.
Speaker 2:Welcome back everyone to Mapping the Doctrine of Discovery. My name is Phil Arnold. I'm a professor of religion and core faculty in Native American Indigenous Studies at Syracuse University and the founding director of the Scano Great Law Peace Center.
Speaker 3:And I'm Sandy Bigtree, a citizen of the Mohawk Nation at Akwesasne Bear Clan. We welcome you back today. I think it's during this disheartening times we're living in right now, and, although we're talking about the doctrine of discovery, I think today's speaker will offer a lot of hope in some direction on how we can plot our way through these times.
Speaker 2:We're sponsored by the Henry Luce Foundation.
Speaker 4:Foundation generously, and today we have with us Yuria, who I'm going to invite to introduce herself to the audience. You just heard my indigenous Maya language Batsilkop means the true word. Batikop means the true word, so those that speak it, we are the truth bearers. And when I say truth, we are meaning more original words like the closer to the earth word, and I speak. I was born and raised in the highlands of Chiapas in Mexico, in a Batilcop Maya village, and that's where I give my honors to my ancestors of earth, my ancestors of land and my ancestors of blood that have grown my soul and the strengthility with which the life in the magical realism of Indigenous dreamlands bring into my work. As I said, I'm a truth bearer. I'm also a trickster, a dreamer and maybe a culture shifter, but I'm also a scholar.
Speaker 4:I'm a postdoctorate researcher at the University of California, berkeley, where I am carrying a multi-year project on indigenous forms of contemplation through interdisciplinary approaches to the transcendent experience that are embodied in prosocial behavior, that's, spiritual exercises or practices of reverence, of ethics, of compassion and a sense of awe, love and sacredness, and I've been working with indigenous communities of the Americas, and my work, then, will take me to Asia as well, and to Africa to continue this work.
Speaker 4:And it is how, along with elders and the community itself, we can bring indigenous ontologists and epistemologists in the way we do research in academia and how we can elevate our indigenous sciences to create bridges in which we broaden the sense of what it means sciences in plural, and then we create together ways of finding solutions that benefit the larger planetary communities of relatives relatives of, of course, the human species, but more than human relatives and the whole of the environmental earth community. I'm really excited to speak with you. I'm, of course, a listener of the podcast from the very beginning. I love the work that we inhabit, so I'm excited to be here. Thank you so much, sandy. Bill Adam, thank you.
Speaker 2:Thank you, and I think what you're referring to is really the transformation of the academy into something more life-affirming, life-giving rather than extractive kind of knowledge-based systems. And in that spirit we'd like to talk about your book which of course has just come out, flourishing Kin Indigenous Wis for collective well-being. We've looked at, we've been reading it, treasure it, and can you talk more about how your work is sort of responding to the doctrine of discovery, the trauma of new world thinking, you know, in light of your own tradition and in light of your work with indigenous peoples all over the world?
Speaker 4:Yeah, thank you so much, and I think I'll also tell a little bit of the story of how the book came to be, because I was approached by the publisher for a book on indigenous practices of contemplation and knowing what the mindfulness movement has brought to the West, which I find it to be well profoundly colonial Because it goes to other systems of believing in the mindfulness movement. It's mainly influenced by East Asian traditions, mainly Buddhist tradition, mainly Tibetan Buddhist practices, but there are also other practices from Theravada traditions as well, Buddhist Theravada traditions that then were brought to the West by privileged white mostly men in the 70s, 80s, and then with really good intentions, that must be said as well, intentions on trying to bring the wisdom of these traditions to understand the way we create our sense of self, the way we create our sense of self, the way we create cultural narratives and how we can transform those. But at the moment of then translating these practices into a Western system, then the practices started acquiring the individualist personality of the West. There was also some that I see as cognitive imperialism as well, of seeing other practices in traditions and then thinking that we know better than the tradition itself. What are the elements that are important for that practice and then bring them the way that we translate it into our community in the West. And so that started by secularizing these practices and then depriving them from the most important aspect, that was, the community compassion, you know, like the working for the well-being of a community, larger community. So that the mindfulness movement then became a way of improving the individual, a way of improving the individual right, Improving the self. Better concentration, better sleep, all these different benefits for cardiovascular systems, All of those are really good. But at the moment of secularizing these practices, one the practices lost the capacity to fall in awe and reverence with the community that we live in. And then the practices lost the responsibility to return to that community right or to work for the benefit of that community.
Speaker 4:So for many years, um, I have been speaking and writing against this view, this very white, privileged view, uh, of of contemplation, and started doing work as I started also getting into the academic work of contemplative studies, which is now a 30-decade field of studies. Like academic studies, there was absolutely no representation of indigenous voices or wisdom in that field, and then it was mostly, as I was mentioning, the colonial way of approaching contemplation. So my work has been to bring indigenous life ways and indigenous, very sophisticated systems of contemplative sciences and the ways that these systems return that sense of reverence to the larger planetary community. And so when I was approached for the book, I said that a book of only practices would just perpetrate this. Narrow peoples of the world have lived, continue to live, that we carry under our skin, and then these practices will just become commodified, right as they have become with the mindfulness movement. I said that also, being this my very first book, I needed to give the part of my own story you know, part of my life and really make people look beyond the facade of complacency that I feel that these mindful practices bring, that it's all for the comfort, cushioning and perhaps even perpetuating ideas of who has access to this benefit or discomfort, or because the world is a mess. Then I go to my retreat in which I'm safe and it's enough for me to send love from a cushion in my perfect paradise mountain, instead of returning and setting with the people, instead of returning and setting with the people, working with the people to change those conditions that continue to bring the struggles to most of the world. And so I pushed to bring these more important components into the book. Fortunately, the publisher agreed and then I started bringing these stories, many of the stories that these population in the contemplative world or in the mindfulness world are resistant to see in the eye. Right, Because this complacent place is a blind place. Right, it's not ready to deal with fragility or it's not ready to deal with their own vulnerability, is not ready to reckon with the horrors that have been imposed upon the whole world right of genocide and such. So I pushed for that to be in the book, to be in the book.
Speaker 4:I must say also that I was asked to be not as vociferous as I tend to be. You know, when I speak, live, that I tend to be really vociferous about what I live, what I have lived, what I see. My peoples continue living, what I see. I have worked for almost 20 years in humanitarian work around the world with indigenous peoples around the world, and I see these situations that have brought many of these communities to have 20 years of less life expectancy than others, the non-Indigenous counterparts. In the US alone, Indigenous communities have seven years less of life expectancy. Seven years less of life expectancy. So when I speak about challenges, I'm not only speaking metaphorically. There are metrics that show why the lack of access to education, to medicine, to life safe, of crime, etc. Are more impaired or rampant in indigenous communities, right so?
Speaker 3:well where we live. You know this is where the colonists came into this territory and through the Erie Canal. It was an artificial waterway, right, and living conditions were so oppressive for everybody the immigrants coming into this territory, this artificial stream, and it's the kind of, um, you know, the manufacturing of, of materials and excavation of resources and and they were thrown together with so many other cultural groups, the irish and the italians and the spanish, and you know um, everybody's thrown together. But out of this situation arose all these new uh religions. It was called the Burned Over District because they were all searching for something Right.
Speaker 3:So first of all, these new religions were already disjointed from their communities and their homeland. So you know, it presented the groundwork for a new kind of identity of being human, but it was disconnected, you know, from everything. And to make it even more personal into the current time frame here, phil and I met in Boulder, colorado, and that's kind of the new age capital of this country, along with Berkeley. I think we're well aware of mindfulness, that whole movement and the striving to this utopian vision of the personal connection to God, and we often heard that expressed God is speaking through me and we often heard that expressed God is speaking through me. You know, for people that had this inspired thought, it was always attributed that it only came through them and it was coming directly from God. So we're very much aware of what you're having a problem with and trying to, you know, dispel. You know that this kind of movement of mindfulness has some problems, you know.
Speaker 2:And then, of course, with the burned over district along the Erie Canal, which is being celebrated this year, by the way, for this 200-year anniversary comes the dispossession of the Haudenosaunee. You know, we're in the heartland of the Haudenosaunee territory. So simultaneous to the attainment of these new relationships to the divine, including Mormons and others, is the dispossession of indigenous peoples right, so religion becomes a problem simultaneously, that it's also a kind of window in some ways as well, and I find that you're working at that kind of juncture in your book working at that kind of juncture in your book and this possession of indigenous peoples, and I should emphasize that I feel in the end it all comes to land, right, it all comes to wealth.
Speaker 4:You know the wealth of the lands, but the dispossession goes into tangible and intangible heritage of indigenous peoples. Right, I mean part of also my work, and in the book there's a section that's right relationships with indigenous peoples. When approaching our spiritual practices with indigenous peoples? When approaching our spiritual practices, Because many of the spiritual practices in many indigenous traditions have been extracted and brought into the West, not only the intangible heritage, which are rituals, ceremonies, songs, dances, but also the tangible heritage, like the materials, even to the point of genetic material, in order to patent our sacred practices, spiritual practices for just another kind of business model in the West, similar to the mindfulness movement. But then now, in the aspect of what indigenous spiritual practices are but that the West calls psychedelics, and in the end, is this then again taking the wealth of the truth bearers, in a way of the people that are closer to the original wisdom of the earth, in order to try to sort how to heal these profound wounds that the West itself has created on themselves, right?
Speaker 2:So I read it.
Speaker 4:Yeah, and in the end I think it all has to do with the doctrine of discovery. You know, like this is, this is the um, the, the was the the first link in our conversation. I understand why all these different groups trying to look for new religions, news, new practices, new rituals, new um, even that medicalized model that I find so absurd, looking for ways to heal themselves. But rather than looking into just this superficial wound that's oozing, pause from the historical damage that has created. We really need to reckon and go to the very rotting origin of this disease, which is that belief system of Abrahamic traditions in which, in the very first verses of the Genesis, there is this idea that that men or that translation better said no.
Speaker 4:The translation of those verses was that that men was to dominate all of creation, right. But then all of creation suddenly became an object of service, sort of like deprived of life. Then, of course, when I speak about men in this context, it was not all men right, context it was not and abused right. So if we start from a belief system that has these seeds of hierarchy and abuse and domination and extraction and wealth in the end, then what do we expect? Right, centuries and millennia after, that belief system has been ingrained, and not only in a closed location, but it has been imposed upon the world over right Right.
Speaker 4:Since the Middle Ages.
Speaker 3:Well, in this country the Jesuits brought, you know, the tenets of the doctrine of discovery into the Northeast, and this was indigenous people under the great law of peace, the Haudenosaunee, and they brag about having Christianized, like the Wyandotte and Innu within 30 years, completely Christianized them, right, and they wrote their histories about who we were. And then you jump ahead to the mid 1700s, another hundred years past that, and you have, like Cotterwaller Colden, writing the history of the five nations. He was the last governor of the New York colony before they gained independence and separated from Britain. But he said all we know about the Haudenosaunee came from the French, and those documents were not correct. You know. They were manipulated to project the wrong kind of culture. They forced women to marry their husbands within the first couple of years and take an oath of subservience to their husband, and these are people that followed the matrilineal clan system, right. And then the priests wouldn't let them hunt unless they accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. So only then could they hunt. But then they hunted on such a massive scale that they killed the beaver, they practically eradicated the beaver and jeopardized the venison, and these were meats that were traded, you know, with the Haudenosaunee, and so this intrusion of Christianity really had such a profound disruption. And then the Christians, the Jesuits, had forced to be Christian. The Haudenosaunee saw they were a threat and warfare started at that point. So the Haudenosaunee could protect this part of the country.
Speaker 3:But that's not how the history was written. They said the Haudenosaunee could protect this part of the country, but that's not how the history was written. They said the Haudenosaunee were always at war with the Wyandotte. And it's not true. And then Codwalder then reiterates that kind of a history. So we can't even trust primary texts that founded this country. Of course, being indigenous, that's pretty obvious. But you know you can't get any authentic history from going back to those texts because they were texts. They were writing down the law of future generations and how they would identify being human. It goes so deep.
Speaker 2:And then of course they you know those primary texts love to say that they're now exterminated. You know all of these practices are gone this is part of the rap that the Jesuits were sending back to European kings that we've been so successful that you know, they no longer practice their heathen ways or whatever. But right down the road here we have the most traditional Haudenosaunee government in the United States Right that have managed to basically keep everything quiet. You know, and I'm sure your folks have done the same. You know they've had to camouflage and, and you know, keep their traditions hidden.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:You're talking about this communication and relationship with the natural world which defines us right and going back to Todd Wallader-Colden and his history of the Five Nations, he was writing about these orators and speakers who were men of such few words and they had no way of expressing complex ideas when they spoke, but they used metaphors all the time. He wrote this in his history. They wrote metaphors and it was a more effective way of of um pulling out the passion of people listening, and that's because when you're connected with the natural world, you see the world in metaphor. It's not just that they spoke in metaphor, it's a different way of being human in this world, and you speak a lot about metaphor in your book and it got me thinking about Adelwalder and and and some of the traditional leaders here.
Speaker 2:They refer to the language almost being cinematic.
Speaker 4:You know, there's so much there that you just see, you know, in the language and that resonates, I think, with what you're saying as well yeah, and and well, one of the beautiful things also about the freedom I guess that I had with the book was, or relative, that I was able to use my more natural speech, which is much more poetic, right, and as you know, an academic book would not welcome that kind of talk, but in a academics.
Speaker 4:So it's all this pointing to this multiplicity in which we understand the world, right, because a misinterpretation or a huge misunderstanding interpretation or a huge misunderstanding about indigenous peoples many times is that, oh, we are not scientific enough or rigorous in our sciences, right, and that just shows a profound ignorance of what indigenous sciences are and how rigorous in the observation and analysis of phenomena.
Speaker 4:And then the narratives that we create to make sense of that world. And, of course, if seeing it from the very singular, narrow view of Western science, in which there's an object that's inert, that one can study for utilitarian reasons, then of course it doesn't make sense, right. But if we see it from the multifaceted and multidimensional aspect of indigenous sciences, in which there is a dialogue, intersubjective dialogue, with our subject of study, in which we are both transformed at the process of being in communion with this process, then our narratives of that are not thesis and hypothesis, but perhaps are poems and rituals and ceremonies and dances. And then there's this profound, true living in communion with the whole environment with which we are allowing ourselves to be transformed as well.
Speaker 3:Right, right, so there are so many systems of intelligence by which we're related, so we have to be vigilant and paying attention and listening to those systems. We're not in charge of anything, you know, and we can't help along any of these systems, because they're helping us along, frankly, right and they're.
Speaker 4:Even our body is comprised of these systems, I mean we're just kind of hosts, you know, yeah, and you'd say it's so well, uh, sandy, because we are embodying this wisdom, this life ways, these values. Right, we are embodying them. It's not just ideas, no, it's not just, uh, words, it's it's all of our being, uh, that's that's out there and also that's very participatory. It's not, it's not all this individual who's out there doing their thing, right, it's always this, this changing this transformative aspect of the whole body, right, and that's why we need the sound, we need the movement, we need all of these different ways of creating wisdom that are very times overlooked.
Speaker 3:I know there are some nationalist movements that want to have pure, purity in their culture and eradicate, you know, diversity. But the earth is diverse and with this influx of immigrants coming into this country, along with them came the food sources that changed the landscapes. So you know the landscapes, so you know you cannot think in that way of purity of race or, you know, being against diversity, because we live in a diverse world you said it's ever changing, right, and we can't control it.
Speaker 4:It's that idea of purity. Yeah, I mean, it's that idea of purity. I mean, how much suffering could that be bringing to someone? It's like demanding to the soil to be just one thing. And how many universes are in a single grain of sand. Right, we are immersed in that multiplicity and pushing for a singularity. Immersed in that multiplicity and pushing for a singularity just deprives us of passion, of awe, of surprise, love, reverence for every single manifestation of life.
Speaker 1:Do you need help catching up on today's topic or do you want to learn more about the resources mentioned? If so, please check our website at podcastdoctrineofdiscoveryorg for more information and, if you like this episode, review it on Apple, Spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts. And now back to the conversation.
Speaker 4:We start talking about all these systems of of oppression and domination and then we open this huge uh trunk of, of um of demons, you know, of stories that, uh, that are all related and and and that are, I mean, all related in the sense that that we start digging and we find that the these delusions no delusions of of purity of um of belief systems, systems end up wounding the very same people that they are trying to quote. Unquote, save right.
Speaker 3:Well, phil, when we moved here, phil was teaching his Indigenous Religions course in values and he said you know, these students, they get turned off. If they can't find value in how it pertains to them, they're not going to care. This was, you know what, 30 years ago, but you know, I think it's changing. It's shifting in the times we're living in. Now it's becoming urgent.
Speaker 4:Right, and I'm sure you see it with your students, feel that I'm also very hopeful to see the youth movement. You know, hopeful to see the youth movement that has taken so much commitment with the climate catastrophe, the climate emergency, to really be strong participants to create awareness and to from political decision makers that things start really moving towards benefiting the environment. We know that now we have a human right to a healthy environment that includes the health of our bodies of water, our skies, our soils. Pushing for that sort of rights of nature, that personhood for all these different relatives, that is very natural for indigenous communities the world over, right, that there is a consensus in the personhood of our environments, right. And to see such resistance as we are seeing today we were talking about how concerning it is, but also how much it renews the commitment to bring, in whatever way, whatever gift in whatever certain circle of influence, the possibilities of of change, that view, you know, of change, those, those ideas that keeps us separated, isolated, um, deprived of joy, really, of being in community, of valuing the diversity of community.
Speaker 4:And I guess part of also my book was to not only push or challenge the reader into reckoning from a place of awareness and deep compassion. But also, what are the ways forward, what are the pathways that we can take forward? And to know that, while the transitions are are challenging, perhaps exhausting, that nature in all her beauty shows us that it always re-emerges right, it always re-emerges. And, and it is part of our commitment to compose all those old stories, all those narratives of me and purity and domination, and start allowing them to return to the earth so that then they give life to a new way of being that has all these values of kindness and care and commitment and reverence and awe and love for life. That we have a possibility to change, that we can make a difference and that we have to get together to do that. That it is precisely the challenge to isolation and that the more we get together, the sooner we change this.
Speaker 3:And the more we get together, the sooner we change this. A big peg in this is to support Indigenous people and their values and their practices, because this is ancient knowledge that can benefit everybody. And you know the populations are still dwindling but you know they're still practicing their ceremonies here at On Dog. It's such a rigorous ceremonial cycle. Oren has even Oren Lyons has even said you know, our families and our clans come to ceremony and we don't come to feel good. We never go there just to feel good. We have a responsibility to do these dances and say these words and, you know, offer these um pieces of clothing and artwork and everything else. It's so. It's our responsibility to do that. It's not um self. What is, what is the self? Wellness?
Speaker 2:it's not about wellness.
Speaker 3:It's not about our individuals about connecting this regenerative power of who we are with this live alive earth right yeah, community and when you when you're um.
Speaker 2:When you were talking about um, you know the mindfulness movement and kind of the new age movement and the new age appropriation of these practices. They always make the mistake, always that this is somehow self-help. You know it's not. It's not for the benefit of the what? How did she put it? How do you put it in your book? The more than human world oh yes.
Speaker 3:I love that phrase.
Speaker 2:I love that More than human More than human, because they are more than us.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. We're more dependent on them than they are on us. I want to attribute this to Adam, the producer, and I want this in the podcast. So Adam says is this the last, final intense gasp of the doctrine of discovery, trying to foreclose change and transformation? I mean what we're experiencing now. Maybe we're in a moment right, a moment as you were saying that there is. We're in a moment of transformation and something's got to give. And I think, going back to the students, the students understand that they feel that in their own bodies, they feel that in their anxiety Most of them are overwhelmed with anxiety and so you know, but through that, know that something has to give, right?
Speaker 4:So I'm wondering are we in that moment yet, right?
Speaker 4:So I'm wondering, are we in that moment yet? I? I I feel those moments has has started and continue, and and one thing that we should never um forget is that these tensions are all part of one same sacred, larger dance, cosmic dance, right, that it's not that they will ever end, thank goodness, right. This tension is the power of creativity to want to come out and transform. Transform from the staleness of something that is already not giving. That is not, um, uh, sterile, that is sterile, right, and the youth sense that in their bodies. They feel it in their tummies when they hear indigenous speakers and they get up and say like this is what I want.
Speaker 4:No, I'm tired of the whatever, um more, um death, ways of seeing things as, as inert as well.
Speaker 4:Right, and uh, I believe that, yes, if this is a moment of change, it will be challenging, but all the more important that we return to this community, right, so that we continue empowering each other, supporting each other in this change. And the good thing is that, just as Oren said, right, he is such an elder that has inspired many of us and then, hopefully, we will also keep inspiring the youth that will come and then they will inspire the next youth that come and like that right. We come never alone. We come with our whole communities behind us, in front of us, that are rising our voices right. So we are never, never alone, once we realize that we are part of a very responsive, very alive Mother Earth planet that, as a great mother, she's also scolding the child that's playing with fire. She's also scolding the child that's playing with fire right, with the fire of an intellect that is not really channeled in the way that is of responsibility and of care or reverence.
Speaker 3:We're carrying seeds from past generations and planting them for future. So we're never it's what you're saying, we're like never really in the present, because it's always moving and changing, yeah, and in the maya, in the maya tradition.
Speaker 4:You know of my, my upbringing and ancestors. We are always in this spiral time that is always necessarily past and always necessarily future, and we are all in this moment, being informed by both of these different dimensions, and that creates how committed we are, how aware, how conscious is our action today. You know so, then, we don't allow ourselves to dwindle or in hopelessness. No, rather, we know that we have to act because that's independently of the outcome. That's just what we should be doing right, for the benefit of all we should be doing right for the benefit of all.
Speaker 4:This has been an inspiring conversation with Yuria.
Speaker 2:Saldwin.
Speaker 4:Saldwin, yes, saldwin.
Speaker 2:And the book again is Flourishing Kin Indigenous Wisdom for Collective Well-Being. Thank you so much, yuria, for being with us today, and I knew this was going to be an inspiring conversation, and we thank you greatly for all you're doing on all our behalf.
Speaker 4:Thank you so much, dear Sandy and Phil and Adam. We do do together, but definitely you have opened paths for many of these voices to reach more. So may we keep. May we keep sowing those lands with love and care and reverence. Thank you, be well, thank you, thank you.
Speaker 1:The producers of this podcast were Adam DJ Brett and Jordan Lone Colon. Our intro and outro is social dancing music by Oris Edwards and Regis Cook. This podcast is funded in collaboration with the Henry Luce Foundation, syracuse University and Hendricks Chapel and the Indigenous Values Initiative. If you like this episode, please check out our website and make sure to subscribe.
