Mapping the Doctrine of Discovery
Mapping the Doctrine of Discovery
S02E08: Exploring the Doctrine of Discovery, Indigenous Struggles, and the Pursuit of Balance Part 2 with Oren Lyons
Imagine facing a past rooted in subjugation and suppression, only to transform it into a future of balance, peace, and environmental preservation. That's the journey we're embarking on in today's episode. We'll uncover the dark legacy of the Doctrine of Discovery and its devastating effects on our environment while also revealing the relentless struggle of Indigenous people to reclaim their sovereignty and voices. The situation is urgent; our planet is at a crossroads, teetering on the precipice of an irrevocable environmental crisis.
Examining the Doctrine of Discovery in the 18th century, Onondaga Nation Turtle Clan Faithkeeper Oren Lyons discusses the alliances, betrayals and political maneuvers by the settler-colonial nations. He also talks about controversial Indigenous figures like Joseph Brant, who sided with the British, and how the Oneida took the side of the Americans. These examples will serve as a backdrop for Washington's Sullivan Clinton Campaign, which was ignited by Joseph Brandt's actions.
Lastly, the conversation turns toward life's delicate balance. Drawing inspiration from the Great Law of Peace and the Tree of Peace, Faithkeeper Lyons reminds us that all living beings must live in harmony, and none are better. Listen to Faithkeeper Lyons weaves stories of finding a balance between the positive and negative forces within us, the importance of savoring each day, giving thanks, and being careful not to burden others. Faithkeeper Lyons leaves us with a challenge, that getting the best out of the day is a choice, and so is seeking peace in life's tumultuous journey. This episode is more than just a history lesson; it's an invitation to find a balance in life and to contemplate our roles in nature's delicate balance.
View the transcript and show notes at podcast.doctrineofdiscovery.org. Learn more about the Doctrine of Discovery on our site DoctrineofDiscovery.org.
Jordan Loewen-Colón (00:00:08):
Hello and welcome to the Mapping the Doctrine of Discovery podcast. The producers of this podcast would like to acknowledge with respect the Onondaga Nation, Firekeepers of of the Haudenosaunee, the Indigenous Peoples on whose ancestral lands Syracuse University now stands and now introducing your hosts, Philip Arnold and Sandra Bigtree.
Philip P. Arnold (00:00:31):
Can you tell us about, you've told me the story before, but I'd like our listeners to hear it, how you presented the Doctrine of Discovery, I think it was in Geneva.
Oren (00:00:42):
Yeah.
Philip P. Arnold (00:00:44):
And the audience there was very interesting as well.
Oren (00:00:49):
Well, at the time. I said, "Well-
Philip P. Arnold (00:00:52):
This was 2001?
Oren (00:00:54):
2001. I said, "There's stuff going on here. They're acing us out here, and we have to speak up about this. We got to bring it out." And we had the information, we had it for years now. It was '92 when Mike found it. And of course the work that was being done by South America was way before that.
Philip P. Arnold (00:01:15):
Right.
Oren (00:01:16):
So it wasn't a secret, but it wasn't displayed out either. And it certainly wasn't supported by corporations or countries, because it was their hegemony we were talking about.
Philip P. Arnold (00:01:36):
They're not going to get behind that.
Oren (00:01:37):
They're not going to be talking about that. And so when we made that presentation, that was a compilation of all of that. And then I said, "Well, we got to speak up." And we came in conflict with our own lawyer at the time. He was taking a modified position. And I said, "You can't do that." I said, "We have to stand the whole principle. You can't modify a principle, and just if you try to modify a principle, you don't have a principle, period. There's no discussion." He was doing his own. It wound up us firing him as a council, as the long run business, we couldn't work together.
Philip P. Arnold (00:02:43):
And there are a number of native lawyers that are in that group, I think, probably.
Oren (00:02:50):
Well, the issue I think that I saw, was that if your foundational self is predicated on your beliefs, then those people who believe in Christianity, those lawyers, Indian lawyers and so forth, that's a leader, that's contrary. So the traditional people are few and far between, but they're out there, always have been. But their voice has been always suppressed. And we are that voice and our Onondaga Nation is total the other way. We're probably the last group, along with the Tonawanda Tuscarora Nation. And now the battle is taking place with Cayugas trying to take over the traditional chiefs right now, been going on for 30 years, coming to a head now. But that's the hegemony of the federal government, US government.
Philip P. Arnold (00:04:06):
Right.
Oren (00:04:07):
So things have changed. We now have an native person that's in charge of the interior and that's like being in charge of your jailer.
Sandy Bigtree (00:04:27):
Right.
Oren (00:04:27):
Interior has been just trying to get rid of us all these years. And the whole process has been to diminish the native voice. They couldn't do it militarily, so they've been doing it piece by piece, it's been very persistent.
(00:04:46):
But here we are now, we're at odds with the politics of humanity and the reality of nature. We've affected the earth, human beings have affected the earth to the point now where we're facing really point of no return, and that's very close. I keep hearing from the powers that be, by 2050, we really have to do something, I said "In the next 10 years, you have to do something. You don't do something within the next 10 years, you sentence your own children to point of no return."
Philip P. Arnold (00:05:39):
Do you think that the connections are being made between the genocide of indigenous peoples, the Doctrine of Discovery essentially, and environmental destruction? Do you think people are making, connecting those dots, which you have been talking about for forever?
Oren (00:06:06):
A long time, yeah. 60 years. Well, they're finally looking at it. They haven't made any real adjustment to it, and they're running out of time. When we really got a close look at it, was 1960, no, 19... For us. Trying to remember when we got that visit, our Traditional Circle of Elders had a visit from one of the native people of Greenland, who came to our meeting and said to us, "I have a very urgent message." And we said, "Well, we'll give you time to rest." And he rested, because he showed up at our meeting where it was held in Northern Michigan at the time, I think on the Chippewa Nation, I'm not certain of the details now, but it was up in that area, and it was hot. Meeting was in the middle of the summer. And here comes a man. He was stripped to the waist and he was wearing leathers, and has a beard. Strong-looking individual, stocky. Wanted to address the council.
(00:07:42):
And that's who the man we call Uncle now, he was an [inaudible 00:07:48] from Greenland. And he said, "I have to talk to you." He said, "The ice is melting." That was the year 2000, the meeting. "The ice is melting," he said. Then he went on to tell us how fast, how serious it was. And so we made the statement. So I said, "Okay, we have been asked to bring a group of indigenous people to a big meeting at the UN, sponsored by the world religions and so forth." And so I said to them, I said, "Well, who do we bring?" They said, "As many as you can bring." I said, "From where?" "Everywhere." I said, "Who's going to pay for it?" They said, "We'll pay for it.'.
(00:08:49):
So, I got leaders from North, Central, South America, and then a couple from Europe and some Sami people. And we went to the UN in 2000. And I made the statement to the UN at the time, "The ice is melting." And that thing has been now kind of become a iconic.
Philip P. Arnold (00:09:18):
It has.
Oren (00:09:21):
It's become iconic, the ice is melting. And a man that I was working with, Hans Hassell put it into international form, and that's how it got out, the message. And 2000, here we are at '22, headed for '23, almost 23 years later. And the ice has melted. There's no more snow on Kilimanjaro. Gone. There's no more snow on the Himalayas. The snow is going from all the mountains around the world, and the ocean is warming up and the Gulf Stream is slowing down and we're headed for serious disaster, because we've affected our own climate. We've affected what was working very well 60 years ago. We've changed that.
(00:10:33):
Within the 70 years, from 1950 to this time, we've added 8 billion people to the world. All of this is coming to a head now, and what's going on? You've got a war in the Ukraine. You've got a fool like Putin, who was an empire-minded throwback. Throwback to the ideas of empire, trying to reestablish a process that's long gone, and I think causing dismay around the world. I think even including China. I don't believe that they agree with what he's doing. I mean, I think that they were thinking their own way. Their hegemony was with money and so forth. They were doing very well. They didn't need to have a war, but this guy has a throwback to empire and cause all those problems. But maybe in the long run, if you step back, it needed that kind of a jolt to get people to wake up to the seriousness of the situation today.
Sandy Bigtree (00:10:33):
Maybe
Philip P. Arnold (00:11:58):
Maybe.
Oren (00:11:59):
Maybe it needed that big a jolt to shake people out of their bubble.
Philip P. Arnold (00:12:08):
Yeah.
(00:12:11):
Famously you marched in New York City, was it 2019? And you delivered another message to the UN, correct?
Oren (00:12:23):
Yep, yeah. And I was working with the young...
Sandy Bigtree (00:12:23):
Leonardo?
Philip P. Arnold (00:12:23):
Leonardo, yeah.
Oren (00:12:39):
Yeah, Leonardo DiCaprio, who is seriously approaching, has been working hard on the hard issues. And he's focused his work, basically, on the issue of oceans and water.
(00:12:55):
And of course that's where foundationally that there's two things that you need. You need water, you got to have water. If you don't have water, you're done, period. And then you got to have some kind of a relationship with these powers up the universe itself that's positive. A positive relationship, not a negative one, which is the kind the world has right now, we have a very negative relationship with the powers of the universe. We're going against our own welfare, basically, what was driven by greed.
(00:13:45):
I think that the proposition that was presented to us in 1775 at a very important meeting that very few people know about. It's in history, it's there, but it's put out. It was when the colonies were deciding to make a stand against their father, they said the king. And so they asked the Six Nation for a meeting, because they knew that if the Six Nation took a side in this coming battle, whatever side they took was going to win. But both knew that, they knew that, and then the colonists knew that.
(00:14:35):
So, prior to this big fight, they had to talk to us. So they asked for a meeting, 1775. And we had, this treaty was set up to discuss the issue, and they wanted to present to us the situation that they were facing. And they wanted to ask us for a neutral position. "Can you not get involved in this fight? Can you stand to the side?" And interestingly enough, earlier that year, that very same year, English crown had met with our leaders with the same request. "We're going to have a fight." And our leaders said, "Yeah, we've been watching it. We know it's coming. We're watching the whole thing." "We're going to have a fight. But can you stand to the side?" So both the crown and the colonies asked us, because they knew that if the Confederacy took a side, that side was going to win.
(00:15:48):
They also knew that within our own Confederacy of six nations, we had people heavily in favor of the king, and we had people heavily in favor of the colonies. They knew that. And of course, culture itself understood that. So the idea how that discussion of neutrality, was something that was very practical for us. And we agreed, "That's a good idea. You boys took it out and who's ever left standing, we'll work with you on the other end of it. We know the king. We know you. We know you both well. And this is a family fight and everybody knows, and you want to stick your nose in a family fight, it'll both turn on you. So you boys took it out and we'll deal with it." Of course, that kind of language is not what was used at the time, but the meaning of that treaty is very profound. And there's 24 pages of it, almost hour by hour, and it really relates everything.
(00:17:06):
I think it is the seminal treaty of all treaties to illustrate the importance of the confederacy, of the whole structure of this evolvement of relationships with the Western and traditional nations of this country. Everybody should have that treaty. That treaty should be at every high school, every school, every university, every government in this country.
Sandy Bigtree (00:17:40):
Then there were factions that broke off from the Confederacy though, right? Like Joseph Brant sided with the British, stepping away from the Confederacy's stand of neutrality. And then there were Oneida too, that sided with the Americans, yeah.
Oren (00:17:55):
Well, that's what I was saying, I'm saying we knew we had, on the one side people were having for the British and people were having for the Confederacy. That's what I just said.
Sandy Bigtree (00:18:06):
Right, and then the Revolutionary War, they blamed Brant for siding with the British, and that's by Washington ignited the Sullivan Clinton campaign because of Joseph Brant. So it was all kind of a trap.
Oren (00:18:24):
They're all, it's not so succinct, is what you're saying.
Sandy Bigtree (00:18:27):
That they manipulated-
Oren (00:18:29):
It's not so succinct, is what you're saying.
Sandy Bigtree (00:18:37):
Oh, I'm sure. But it is complicated.
Oren (00:18:38):
Well, it was clear that the Six Nation had the power of one side or the other. That was what, most important thing.
Sandy Bigtree (00:18:47):
Mm-hmm.
Oren (00:18:48):
And the agreement that was made in 1775 was violated by Washington.
Sandy Bigtree (00:18:57):
Right.
Oren (00:18:58):
And it was violated by Washington because he said, "Well, you guys stay out of the fight." But then a runner came to Onondaga from the Penobscot Passamaquoddy Nations in Maine and said that Washington was up there recruiting fighters. That's how that started. And the runner came all the way down. I thought we were neutral. And it may be, if you want to give some substance to Washington, it may be that he didn't know that our influence was that far. That was our influence. When he said, "I thought we had..." Well, he meant the Penobscots Passamaquoddys in Maine. "I thought we had a neutrality." Well, of course, Six Nation was speaking for hundreds of native people. They were under our wing.
(00:20:03):
I was in London with Chief Shenandoah, Leon Shenandoah and Phillip Deere. We were meeting with the Japanese people. They were putting up one of the pagodas, peace pagodas. And anyway, we had a day off and we were in London. "What do we do?" I said, "Let's go to the museum, London Museum, see what they got on us."
(00:20:46):
So we went, and I remember when we came to the doorway, and Phillip Deere had a black hat, he always had a blanket, and he always had braids. And I remember that the doorman, as we came to the museum. He says, "Gore, it's Sitting Bull himself," he says. It was funny.
[NEW_PARAGRAPH]We went in, and I said, "Well, where do we go?" I said, "Let's go to the maps. Let's see what the map say." We found a map of the original territory that, the English map of our territory. And it started from Nova Scotia, and it went over to the big lake and down the lake, and it came down the west side of what you call Michigan Lake, Michigan, the Mississippi, down to about Georgia, across Georgia and back up. And it was saying, "Haudenosaunee..." With our proper name, "Haudenosaunee territory."
(00:22:07):
Of course that wasn't our territory, but what they were noting, was our influence. So the best way that I would say, to see that, would be if, our influence, like a red dye and the dye would be very strong around the Great Lakes and where we are. And as it went out, fade, fade, fade, fade to zero. That would be the best way to look at it. And that would encompass all those territories.
Philip P. Arnold (00:22:42):
Right.
Oren (00:22:43):
Because we did have, under our wing, almost 85 nations that we were speaking for, and that they said, that their request that we speak on their behalf, and it would cover that kind of a territory. Nobody that I know of, really studies the contemporary, studies the early 16 hundreds, 17 hundreds in their school, that's just not covered.
Philip P. Arnold (00:23:15):
Right.
Oren (00:23:16):
And so they don't have that treaty, 1775.
Sandy Bigtree (00:23:16):
Wow.
Oren (00:23:20):
But when you see that treaty, when you read that treaty, you will see how they had their hat in their hand when they came to us.
Philip P. Arnold (00:23:30):
Wow.
Oren (00:23:30):
Because they knew we had the balance of power. And it's very clear in that treaty, and the high level of language that was exchanged, our chiefs could speak French, they could speak Spanish, and they could speak English. And the rest of the Six Nation languages and probably more, because they had to. They weren't saying, "Ah, me, Indian."
Sandy Bigtree (00:23:58):
No.
Oren (00:23:58):
When you see the level of discussion in those treaties, you understand how far advance our people had to be to maintain that.
Philip P. Arnold (00:24:14):
Is there a name for that treaty, for that meeting? Because I'm thinking, like earlier on, there's the Albany Plan of Union, there's the Lancaster.
Oren (00:24:24):
No.
Philip P. Arnold (00:24:24):
No, but it's not named like that or something?
Oren (00:24:28):
It's sat on, it's been hidden.
Philip P. Arnold (00:24:30):
I see. Okay.
Oren (00:24:32):
But it, I would say, of all the treaties, that's the seminal treaty right there, because it was there that they, both sides pleaded for our neutrality. So it's a treaty of neutrality. "We'll stay out of it. You boys duke it out."
Philip P. Arnold (00:24:51):
Yeah.
Oren (00:24:53):
But it's word for word, hour by hour. And there was a pre-meeting that was set up prior to that. And then even earlier that spring, our meeting with the British on the same subject. It was a very busy year, 1775. It was the eve of the revolution, but they could not have a revolution if Six Nations took the side of the British, they were done. They knew it. They knew it, so they had to come to us with their hat and their hand. And they had to tell us, and they did. You read that treaty, and you'll see how they spent hours and hours explaining to us how badly they were being treated. And then they said in that treaty, they said, "In 1744, you advised us to make a union like yours. We are now taking your advice." That is no casual... Maybe the Iroquois had a influence with them. This was very specific, "We are now taking your advice. We're going to make a union like yours." And they used all of our [inaudible 00:26:12] to put fire over everything.
Philip P. Arnold (00:26:15):
Arrows.
Oren (00:26:16):
Everything. It's all in that treaty. That should be in every high school, every school, every university, and certainly in every senator and every congressman, should be on his desk. You wouldn't be no USA today if we didn't agree to that, period.
Sandy Bigtree (00:26:41):
Wow.
Oren (00:26:41):
No discussion. They had their hat in their hand when they came to us. "But you guys stay out of it." They didn't ask her to fight with them, but they knew there was a split, even within ourselves, there was split, but we had a better handle on it than they did.
Philip P. Arnold (00:27:05):
Well, that's one of those things where we have the, you could say, approved narrative, settler-colonial narrative of American history. And yet what's hidden from us, at our own cost, I think, is the real relationships that were developed.
Oren (00:27:27):
Well, over 400 years.
Philip P. Arnold (00:27:30):
Yeah.
Oren (00:27:30):
I mean, our relationship began with the Dutch in 1613. Finally, the Dutch came, well, they knew we were there, everybody knew we were there. And that was Captain Hudson going up to Hudson River. Now the Hudson River, imagine one captain goes up there one time, they name a river after him. That river has its own name from us, The River That Runs in Both Directions. That's the real name for that river. And it, which it does.
Philip P. Arnold (00:28:09):
Yeah.
Oren (00:28:09):
Tide goes all the way up to Albany. And if you're paddling a canoe, you better wait until it's going downstream, otherwise you're paddling against the current.
Sandy Bigtree (00:28:21):
Wow.
Oren (00:28:21):
So anyway, all that has to become part of American history and public discussion. They have to understand how important the Six Nation was to everything, to everything. I mean, we had this union that was so strong, that was recognized by Indian nations, it was recognized... These confederacies weren't just here. I mean the Sioux Nation, or they call the Lakota, Dakota, Dakotan. There was seven, really, almost like us, they were made one.
Philip P. Arnold (00:29:05):
Yeah, I wondered about that.
Oren (00:29:06):
Not only that, but if you went a little further south, there was, coalitions were all over. I mean, everybody had that. They had their speakers and they had their unions, was a common style of governance?
Philip P. Arnold (00:29:21):
Right, of peace traditions too. There had to be peace traditions.
Oren (00:29:25):
Well, this war, the idea of war and the idea of calling the so-called Iroquois warrior, the killers. We have a bad reputation, and yet our confederation is based on a tree of peace. How far away from the truth can you be? And what we were doing-
Philip P. Arnold (00:30:00):
Exactly.
Oren (00:30:01):
... modified everything and trying to keep some semblance of control and peace, because we were being overrun by millions of people coming from across the sea, they were just overrunning us, an impossible situation.
Philip P. Arnold (00:30:24):
Yeah.
Sandy Bigtree (00:30:25):
As soon as you start organizing around domination, though, even the natural world suffers. It all is a pyramid scheme of hierarchy. Once you start feeling you're in control or in charge of something-
Oren (00:30:39):
Well, if your Christianity is based on a word, dominion.
Sandy Bigtree (00:30:42):
Exactly.
Oren (00:30:44):
What else is there?
Sandy Bigtree (00:30:46):
That's right.
Oren (00:30:47):
Dominion. Dominion. And Steve Newcomb just spent his whole life on that.
Sandy Bigtree (00:31:01):
Yeah.
Philip P. Arnold (00:31:01):
Yes.
Sandy Bigtree (00:31:01):
Right.
Oren (00:31:01):
Which is important. You have to have somebody out there doing that kind of work to illustrate the lies of the country. The country's based on lies. And I think of troubadours like... There were great singers that made up these songs about America, with no knowledge of the reality and the genocide, the first genocide, the real world genocide that took place where we figure the level is up around 16, 17 million people now. And beginning to acknowledge. And when I was studying at school, I remember being told, "Oh, there was about a million people here."
Sandy Bigtree (00:32:04):
Yeah?
Oren (00:32:05):
That's what they said. About a million people.
Philip P. Arnold (00:32:05):
Oh my God.
Sandy Bigtree (00:32:08):
Oh, sure.
Philip P. Arnold (00:32:10):
Really?
Oren (00:32:10):
In the whole country.
Sandy Bigtree (00:32:12):
Yeah.
Oren (00:32:12):
There was a million people in Long Island.
Sandy Bigtree (00:32:16):
Yeah.
Oren (00:32:16):
I mean, but where'd they go?
Philip P. Arnold (00:32:21):
Right.
Oren (00:32:23):
What happened? Where'd they go, 16 million people? It was the the first real genocide. And if you really get into the history of the Spanish and the slaughter that they did, hunted our people down with dogs, fed the dogs human meat so they would hunt us down. I mean, those dogs are formidable.
Philip P. Arnold (00:32:50):
Yeah.
Oren (00:32:51):
Formidable. Relentless. Relentless.
Philip P. Arnold (00:32:55):
Right. Dogs of war.
Oren (00:32:56):
Yeah, and you can't hide from them. They all sniff you right out, especially if they're hungry. That has to be talked about.
Philip P. Arnold (00:33:11):
Yeah.
Oren (00:33:12):
That has to be exposed. That's a Christian Church. It has to be acknowledged. It came under the Christian doctrine, so that's why we say, the Christian Doctrine of Discovery, because it was Christian, Christianity.
Sandy Bigtree (00:33:28):
Definitely.
Oren (00:33:29):
The Muslims weren't here.
Philip P. Arnold (00:33:30):
Right.
Oren (00:33:31):
You can't blame it on the Muslim.
Philip P. Arnold (00:33:34):
Wasn't the Buddhists.
Sandy Bigtree (00:33:35):
It was the Hindus.
Philip P. Arnold (00:33:39):
Right.
Oren (00:33:39):
Christianity. Christianity. Well, they got their own history.
Philip P. Arnold (00:33:46):
They've got a-
Oren (00:33:47):
Took their leader and killed him.
Philip P. Arnold (00:33:50):
Right.
Oren (00:33:50):
Hung him up on the cross. Jesus.
Sandy Bigtree (00:33:54):
And then blamed the Jews. Then blamed the Jews.
Philip P. Arnold (00:33:59):
Right, right. Yeah. And he was Jewish.
Oren (00:34:02):
Yeah. But now we have 8 billion people in the world, not enough water, not enough land, and certainly no equity. What they said they were going to do in 1775, make a union like ours, that would mean share. Our union was built on sharing, everybody share. One bowl, one spoon. We even had a treaty that said clearly, "One bowl, one spoon, everybody take a bite." That's what that's about.
Philip P. Arnold (00:34:49):
Is that one of them that came out of this lake? Is that one of the agreements?
Oren (00:34:55):
Yeah, well, that came out before, yeah, that came out right after the consolidation.
Philip P. Arnold (00:35:04):
I remember.
Oren (00:35:08):
Casemaker bringing, "How will we teach the people?"
Philip P. Arnold (00:35:11):
Right.
Oren (00:35:12):
"One bowl, one spoon." That was the first treaty. That's how we're going to teach the people. Okay, so we say to the people, "Okay, you make a union like ours? You got to share." "Okay, we will. We'll share, but you got to buy a share." How do you take a and flip it on its head and now you got to buy it?
Philip P. Arnold (00:35:39):
Yeah.
Oren (00:35:40):
How do you take share, and then you have to buy it?
Philip P. Arnold (00:35:48):
We're a shareholder?
Oren (00:35:53):
Yeah. I mean, it is so-
Sandy Bigtree (00:35:53):
Well, that's what colonialism does, it takes something precious and then manipulates it so they can-
Philip P. Arnold (00:35:59):
Flips it.
Sandy Bigtree (00:36:00):
... control you.
Oren (00:36:01):
It's all about money. And money isn't going to be...
Philip P. Arnold (00:36:06):
It's an illusion.
Oren (00:36:09):
Certainly is now, because there's nothing backing it up.
Philip P. Arnold (00:36:12):
Yeah. Well, and look what happened to, what is it? The Bitcoin and all that, right?
Oren (00:36:19):
Yeah, that took off a rocket because people, "Oh-
Sandy Bigtree (00:36:25):
Fantasy gain.
Oren (00:36:26):
... I make our own money." Yeah, it's a stab in a short form. It's a short hand of what was going on in the long hand. But it also illustrates, and one of my friends in Sweden who works on this issue all the time and is probably the most advanced thinker in this issue of what's happening today in term of commerce, he's predicting a complete failure, financial disaster, financial collapse over the next four years, because there's nothing backing up the money. You just want more money, just print it.
Philip P. Arnold (00:37:27):
Right. Yeah.
Oren (00:37:32):
I mean, what happened to the gold standard?
Philip P. Arnold (00:37:40):
Right. Well, even that, who decided gold was the standard, right?
Oren (00:37:46):
Well, that was the standard for discovery.
Philip P. Arnold (00:37:49):
Yeah.
Oren (00:37:49):
That was what came over on the Nina, the Pinta and the Santa Maria.
Philip P. Arnold (00:37:53):
Yeah.
Oren (00:37:54):
Gold. That's what it's all about, that's all they wanted. "Oh, we're going to..." First thing they said, "Gold." Commerce, money, drives me crazy. I mean, they had really ransacked Africa already. They already ransacked Africa. They were selling the people, that was their commerce. And England has a lot to answer for in that direction.
Philip P. Arnold (00:38:24):
Indeed.
Oren (00:38:25):
They're foundational to slavery and everything else,
Philip P. Arnold (00:38:28):
Right. Slave had, Spain and Portugal.
Sandy Bigtree (00:38:34):
The 1493 Papa Bull was written about six weeks after the monarchs received Columbus' letter that he indeed found gold in the Americas.
Oren (00:38:48):
Yeah.
Sandy Bigtree (00:38:48):
That quick a turnaround. That's when the 1493 Papal Bull was written. Gold.
Oren (00:38:55):
Well, it was just flat out hegemony. "Oh, another section? Here, I'm the Pope." And Christianity was in charge of countries. I mean, kings and queens paid [inaudible 00:39:13] to the church. It was amazing. And that's why our England crown revolted. And the king said, "Oh, well, I'm good as anybody down there, so let's have my Bible."
Philip P. Arnold (00:39:27):
Right. Right.
Oren (00:39:28):
So, he made a Bible.
Sandy Bigtree (00:39:29):
Right.
Philip P. Arnold (00:39:30):
Right.
Oren (00:39:32):
Come on, come on. I mean, the foundation is in the heads of human beings as far as they're concerned, but the reality is the foundation's outside. If you don't understand those laws and those rules, you're just flat going to suffer the consequence, period. There's no mercy out there. None.
Sandy Bigtree (00:40:02):
No.
Oren (00:40:03):
Just law. Just law.
Sandy Bigtree (00:40:05):
But if you don't connect to it, you're lost. It's just regenerative vitality of life. And that's what we all need to connect to, is that, because it keeps transforming and recreating. But these-
Oren (00:40:21):
Well, we're given this great option to continue, and look what we've done.
Sandy Bigtree (00:40:25):
Terrible.
Oren (00:40:29):
Yeah. I mean, it's hard, dealing with leaders from around the world now, especially in the banking business. I won't use any names, but China, Italy, Turkey, Sweden, these people are knowledgeable about the process. They're very wealthy and they know it's in jeopardy. And I think they're just beginning to realize how much in jeopardy it is and how all-encompassing it is. There's always this observation as if everything was happening to somebody over there.
Philip P. Arnold (00:41:34):
Right.
Oren (00:41:35):
Never to you. Somehow you were over here watching everything happening over there, somehow. But the human population is like that frog in a pan on the stove, you're swimming around, the water's heating up, you're getting used to it. It's getting hot now, you're starting to cook. Yeah, now what's it take you to jump out of that?
Sandy Bigtree (00:42:04):
I know.
Oren (00:42:05):
What's it going to take to jump out of that pan? Not a better jumper than a frog.
Philip P. Arnold (00:42:16):
Right.
Oren (00:42:17):
So what's it going to take? And they're talking about greed now, flat-out greed. Greed has taken over what that group that came to us at 17... "We're going to make a union like yours," they said.
Philip P. Arnold (00:42:32):
Yeah.
Oren (00:42:34):
Well, if I was there, I would say, "You make a union like ours, where's the women? Where's 50% of your population here?" Our union was based on the women, 1600 years ago, women. We follow the women's side. We don't follow the men's side. That's 1600 years ago. And why? Because women are life, they're in charge of water. Water's life. Men, in charge of fire. Well, you know that water will put fire out. It's just fundamental. So, survival is going to be right back to what we said in 1988. I got a request, a call from... Trying to remember the man in charge of a church in New York we worked with so long.
Philip P. Arnold (00:42:34):
Oh, St. Patrick's?
Oren (00:42:34):
No, no, not St. Patrick's.
Philip P. Arnold (00:42:34):
No.
Oren (00:44:19):
It was the... Well, that guy was really fundamental to us getting involved. He's the one that invited us to the meeting in London, who to join the parliamentary and spiritual leaders for human survival.
Philip P. Arnold (00:44:42):
Oh.
Oren (00:44:47):
See, he was so famous and such a good friend of mine, I can't remember his name-
Philip P. Arnold (00:44:51):
Oh wow.
Oren (00:44:51):
... right now. But he was the one that.
Philip P. Arnold (00:44:54):
Saint John the Divine, maybe.
Oren (00:44:56):
Yeah, saint John the Divine. He had elephants walking down. He had Indians with drums up there and burning [inaudible 00:45:06] It was his downfall as leader, I think, up there. I think the church didn't know what to do. But he understood the relationship. And he said, "You guys come on over." And I said, I wouldn't bring Thomas Banyacya." "Bring him." And I was at the meeting, and presiding, Mother Teresa was there.
Sandy Bigtree (00:45:38):
Wow.
Oren (00:45:38):
The Dalai Lama was there. The vice president of United States was there, senators were there. And President Gorbachev.
Sandy Bigtree (00:45:57):
Wow.
Oren (00:45:58):
It's quite a group. The Sufis and the leaders of, spiritual leaders from around the world at this meeting. And so we went, it was very interesting to me. But they were there, talking about human survival, spiritual, parliamentary leaders were, human survival. And Gorbachev, leader.
(00:46:39):
So, we met there, and then we met again, and we met in Moscow in 1990. And at that time, the spiritual leaders from Israel, [inaudible 00:47:05] "I want to see if... You guys held our people prisoners and so forth." And they said, "Yeah, we'll help you." So he was able to, that was the style of leadership at the time.
Philip P. Arnold (00:47:22):
Wow.
Oren (00:47:24):
And Gorbachev was in discussion with the president of the United States at that time, and they were working together. They brought the wall down in Germany. That wall came down, and they were in real coalition for real peace. And as far out as President Reagan, he was working with Reagan, they were really moving towards a real world peace. And when Reagan's time went out, and he was replaced by the next president-
Philip P. Arnold (00:48:09):
Bush.
Oren (00:48:10):
Bush number one, he never followed through. He dropped that. He dropped that. I have no understanding of why he did not follow up on that. Because if he did, we'd be in a so different situation today. But he didn't. And that really collapsed all of the work that Gorbachev was doing. I mean, they were ready to hang him. I mean he was in physical danger by the country, they could execute him. Because he said to me that you can't, "This transition is going to take two generations, maybe three, maybe four. You're not going to turn over overnight." But nobody had that longevity of thinking that he had. He understood.
(00:49:27):
Then our side of it dropped the ball, big time. Why? I have no idea why. And then we were meeting in Japan in '91, Circle of Elders. And at that time, I said to Akio Matsumura, who was the executive director of New People Around the World, I said, Akio, how long are we going to have a meeting without a conclusion? We need a conclusion. And he says, "Yeah, I think so. Why don't we put it to the group?" And the group, very formidable group, was meeting two, 300 people there. I don't know how many, world leaders, all of them.
Philip P. Arnold (00:50:24):
Wow.
Oren (00:50:25):
Coalition. Put the question to them, "Can we get a conclusion?" "Okay." Three days later, they had a conclusion. Out of all those meetings are four words. Four words, "Value change for survival." If we don't change our values, we're not going to survive, period.
Sandy Bigtree (00:50:50):
Right.
Oren (00:50:52):
There it is. How much clearer can you be? Value change for survival. And we put that out. The next meeting, big meeting was down in Brazil. And we were there. And that was a whole discussion, was a great meeting. It was a great meeting. That had started in Sweden in '72. And then that meeting in Sweden in '72, Audrey Shenandoah was there. Our people were there on that issue. And that died. That got killed.
(00:51:42):
The last meeting that we had that I went to, was in South Africa. And it was a battle just to get our voice on the issue. And if it wasn't for one or two guys just hanging, because everybody, those meetings are expensive. And if you're there for two, three weeks-
Philip P. Arnold (00:52:11):
Oh my gosh.
Oren (00:52:12):
That's a lot of money. And we never had money. And then on top of that, we lost, our leader died at that time per the Turtle Clan. Tat was Paul Waterman.
Philip P. Arnold (00:52:33):
Yeah.
Oren (00:52:33):
So I had to leave there and I had to come back. I had to leave that meeting and go back for the funeral. And I left Robbie Romero. Robbie Romero was one of the few people back there that hung in there to keep the Indian voice, [inaudible 00:52:56] voice on that issue, because this was the meeting after the one in '92-
Philip P. Arnold (00:53:03):
In Brazil.
Oren (00:53:07):
In Brazil, 10 years later.
Philip P. Arnold (00:53:10):
Oh, 10 years?
Oren (00:53:11):
Yep. So the tenor had changed now. And corporations and countries were reacting to this whole idea of democracy. So we were involved in a lot of this.
Sandy Bigtree (00:53:32):
Wow.
Oren (00:53:32):
We were right there. I was there.
Philip P. Arnold (00:53:36):
It's just remarkable, just sitting here listening to you and hearing about this history, and how ahead of the curve... Right around '92, '91, '92, there was this energy around...
Oren (00:53:58):
Huge.
Philip P. Arnold (00:53:59):
An optimistic kind of energy that we hope that can happen again. We hope that can be generated again. We're up to the brink now.
Oren (00:54:10):
You got to-
Philip P. Arnold (00:54:12):
Something has to change.
Oren (00:54:13):
You got to do better than hope.
Philip P. Arnold (00:54:15):
Yeah.
Oren (00:54:15):
You got to do better than hope. You got to do it. I mean it's not as if that's an option.
Philip P. Arnold (00:54:23):
Yeah.
Oren (00:54:24):
If you want to survive, then you better get to work.
Philip P. Arnold (00:54:28):
Yeah. Good.
Oren (00:54:30):
I think Biden, president, is open to a lot of stuff now, because there's this battle here in this country. If the Democrats lose, the country's gone, period.
Oren (00:54:51):
Yeah.
Philip P. Arnold (00:54:52):
I don't know. Well, when I brought the issue at the meeting in Geneva, the Holy See was sitting down. I was up on a higher level of the room. We were a huge room we were meeting in and the Holy See, there was about eight or maybe nine members sitting in a row, and they were all in their black uniforms. And when I got up and I spoke about the Doctrine of Discovery and about their participation in this whole thing, they turned around almost on a pivot, all at once, all the same, to see who was speaking. And they turned around and they looked. And I stood there and I point my finger at them. I says, "Yes, you, you, in trouble." Gave me a great opportunity to point them out, because they have standing at the United Nations, the church.
Sandy Bigtree (00:56:10):
Right.
Philip P. Arnold (00:56:11):
But so does the Anglican church, they have standing as well.
Sandy Bigtree (00:56:16):
Oh, I didn't know that.
Oren (00:56:16):
Yeah, a lot of people don't know that.
Sandy Bigtree (00:56:18):
No. I knew the Vatican did. Wow.
Oren (00:56:22):
Yeah, they have standing as well. So we have, what I would say from my calculations, 12, I always come up to 2034 for point of no return. If we don't change our direction, fundamentally, I'm talking about the whole world, change our direction and begin to work for the common good and seven generations instead of your own self. And the issue is not gold, the issue is survival of the species. If we don't approach that and if we don't deal with that, and if we don't accomplish that change, then there's no hope for the human species. It's going to go down, and go down hard. How long it will take and what it will look like, we have some prophecies. And all I can say is, and I'm not going to get into that. All I can say is it's not good.
(00:57:53):
And then when that was presented, but on the other hand, when that was presented to this person 200 years ago or more, and this person was listening to all of this that's coming, he said, "Well, what can be done?" And the answer was, "That's up to you." So in other words, the human population is in charge of its own faith. And we can turn, and we can change, and we must if we're going to exist.
(00:58:49):
So, I think all of this has to have some kind of consolidation and has to have coordination. And it's the positive force against a negative force, basically. That's as simple as that. And those two forces, positive and negative, are in each one of us, right down the middle. It's what you call a balance between the two. And if you're too negative over here, you're just going to be bad news all day. And if you're too positive over here, you're still going to be bad news. So that whole thing is to keep a balance. And that's the tree of peace. And that's what our leaders were said, "When you feel not strong, your back, lean against a tree, that's your [inaudible 01:00:12], that's your strength, that's your spine." And that's an option, every day.
Oren (01:00:26):
Wow.
Philip P. Arnold (01:00:26):
So here we are.
Sandy Bigtree (01:00:28):
That's pretty...
Oren (01:00:29):
Thank you so much, Oren, for speaking with us today.
Sandy Bigtree (01:00:35):
That pretty much wraps it up.
Oren (01:00:37):
It's a great way to finish.
Sandy Bigtree (01:00:39):
There's not much more to say.
Oren (01:00:40):
Yeah.
Sandy Bigtree (01:00:40):
After that, clearly.
Philip P. Arnold (01:00:44):
Great. So thank you.
Oren (01:00:46):
Well, all I say is get the best out of the day. Get the best out of the day. Enjoy the day. If you try to carry that weight that I'm just talking about on your mind every day, you're not going to last. You have to take every day at its time, keep a good mind, enjoy the day, but stay on track. Don't be this way. Don't be that way.
Philip P. Arnold (01:00:46):
Don't be a pain.
Oren (01:00:46):
Yeah.
Sandy Bigtree (01:01:25):
Okay.
Jordan Loewen-Colón (01:01:29):
The producers of this podcast were Adam DJ Brett and Jordan Brady Lowe. Our intro and outro is social dancing music by Oris Edwards and Regus Cook.
(01:01:39):
This podcast was produced in collaboration with the Henry Luce Foundation, Syracuse University, Department of Religion, and the Indigenous Values Initiative.
